Eating out is more expensive than it has been in a very long time. We’d all agree on that. How do chefs and owners juggle their costs while also trying to keep your meals as affordable as possible? This week we talk with Savannah chef Rae Robertson about the challenges restaurants face now only today but constantly to keep your meals affordable but still be able to keep the lights on.

Jesse Blanco: Welcome back to the Eat It Like It podcast. If you only knew why we were laughing this time, we are joined once again by Savannah Chef and native Rae Robertson. How are you?

Rae Robertson: Great, how are you?

JB: If people only knew, huh?

RR: (laughing) That’s alright.

JB: Boy, we don’t want to be too inside with what we’re doing here, but I went through about four takes of how we were going to start this podcast, and I said, you know what? Let me just introduce my guest. How are you?

RR: Great. Happy Friday.

JB: Absolutely, happy Friday. Sometimes it’s best to just get to it. So, you and I have spoken a few times about this and that and the other, and life in Savannah as a chef, and the food scene and all of that stuff. But today we’re going to talk about how much everything costs these days. I wanted to share a story, and I will share it with you, a couple of years ago I was hired by the Mcdonald’s corporation to promote Grimace’s birthday, if people remember any of that, there was a special purple milkshake. Do you remember that?

RR: I remember the purple milkshake. Yeah.

JB: Yeah, it was a special promotion. They sent me a gift box with a hoodie, and a bucket hat, and glasses, and all kinds of stuff. And I went to a McDonald’s, that was part of the deal, I had to go to a McDonald’s and open this box there. And I brought my wife with me, and she shot video of me opening the box and putting on the stuff and eating the meal and drinking the purple milkshake. Well, I share all of that to say that when I get to the McDonald’s, I went and bought a Big Mac meal, value meal, and okay, I realized that a milkshake would make it cost more than if it was just a Diet Coke, but that damn Big Mac meal, two years ago, was $14.

RR: Yep, I believe it.

JB: And I don’t—I have no trouble saying I do go to McDonald’s on occasion, but I never get all of that. I’m in and I’m out for breakfast or whatever, or coffee, but I never thought that–I laugh at the air quote–”value meals” could be that expensive. You have kids, do you roll through fast food and all that?

RR: I mean I’d be a liar to say that we don’t, you know, we try not to, but it happens. But even when we do, you know, family of six like like I have, it’s easily over close to 70 bucks if it’s McDonald’s, and if Heaven forbid we go to Chick-fil-a, it’s almost $100 for for all of us to eat.

JB: That’s a lot.

RR: Yeah, it’s a lot

JB: And to think that anything at McDonald’s could cost $14… now, in the big cities, you go to New York or DC or LA or San Francisco or whatever, and those things are going to cost more because they’re paying more for rent and da-da-da-da-da. But I would have never in a million years thought that a Big Mac value meal would cost 14 bucks here in this town. And so I’ve never—obviously, I just shared that that was two years ago. And I started paying attention to what everyday things cost. Since then, we’ve had the price on a lot of things go up, I would say in the last two years. Is that fair?

RR: Yeah, definitely in the last two years.

JB: And it’s put a squeeze on the restaurants, it’s put a squeeze on management, it’s put a squeeze on people’s ability to go out to eat, it’s squeezing everybody. I have a good friend who owns a restaurant over in Hilton Head, and, this was about 6-7 months ago, she said, “hey, did you end up going to blah, blah?” I said, “yeah.” She goes, “how was it?” I go, “man, it was a little pricey.” She goes, “I don’t want to hear it. Everything’s expensive. What I pay for tomatoes is expensive, my labor is expensive, and everything’s expensive.” And so it is what it is. But that doesn’t eliminate the fact that people still, consumers out there, still think that restaurants are gouging.

RR: They do. And, you know, rightfully so in some aspect, if you don’t know, like, the behind the scenes of pricing and things like that, how much it does take, like she said, to order tomatoes and to order chicken and to order those things, it makes a difference on how she can reflect it and her costs. But at the same time, you have to pick and choose, you know, you’re either going to eat out or you’re not. And if you are, you have to realize that yes, stuff has gone up. It’s not what it was when we were kids or teenagers. My dad used to give me 20 bucks and send me to the movies and be like, you can get popcorn and all that stuff, and that would even include change, like “bring me the change”, absolutely. Now if I send my teenager out with 40 bucks, I’ll be glad if I get anything back at all, between what he’s getting for food, and whatever activity he’s paying for as well. Being a consumer myself, with kids, and also being a chef, I understand what a balance it is. If you’re choosing to go out with your family, you need to be realistic to know that it’s gonna cost more than what it used to when you used to go out, but that doesn’t make it any less worth it. You just have to… it’s the balancing act that comes with it.

JB: How bad has the squeeze been from your side of the fence, not as a mom and having a family, but as a chef, as a restaurant employee? How have the conversations been internally about what everything costs these days?

RR: It’s something that’s always on the table now. Something that we’re always being very mindful of, how much we’re spending for certain products, how much we’re trying to allocate those certain funds for local chefs or local farmers in our community. And naturally, those things cost more, right? And we have no problem paying those costs if we can keep it more local and back to the people in our restaurant. And like we were discussing before we started, I’d be willing to pay more and spend more on good product, even though it costs more, if I don’t have to worry so much about my labor and maintaining good people on my staff. If I have staff that’s constantly rotating, and constantly I’m having to throw funds into training my staff and making sure they’re properly educated on menu and all of those things that go into running, logistically, that side of the business, it’s a lot harder for me to buy better products, because I’m having to spend more on training those people. So when you have good people, you’re able to spend more on good products in your community and not be so hyper focused on how much everything costs. But at the same time, it’s a bottom line: I have to make money. I can’t make money if I’m spending thousands of dollars on beef product, and I have nothing for good tomatoes, and other good product in my kitchen. So it’s picking and choosing. It’s okay to have an off-brand ketchup, it’s okay to use an off-brand box wine for your risotto, if you’re paying good prices for what’s going into your risotto.

JB: Right. No, I get it. I get it. But there’s a dance you guys do constantly.

RR: Yeah, always.

JB: Constantly, my goodness. We could go down a labor rabbit hole for a minute, we’ll do that another time. But how much… I guess in the kitchen, you don’t witness the pushback from the consumer, [it] just is reflected in slower traffic, but how cognizant are you guys of what price you’re going to slap on a menu versus—I mean, we can’t charge $32 for a burger, it won’t sell. 

RR: No.

JB: Are there techniques where you can steal from one side of the menu and offset it on another?

RR: Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean, like to use the example of the risotto, if that’s a star of my menu, I’m gonna make sure I have high quality mushrooms, I’m gonna make sure that I’m using a high white wine, because I’m charging more for this dish than I am for the burger on my menu. So, for the burger on my menu, I might choose to use American cheese versus Gruyere or Gouda, because it’s a little more moderately priced than some of those expensive cheeses. And it is, like you said, it is very much a balancing act. I might pay more for my beef for my burger, but then my fries, I’m not gonna hand cut, because if I hand cut my fries in my restaurant, that’s labor that I have to account for. So that box of potatoes is no longer just the cost of the box of potatoes, I have to factor in how much labor I’m going to need for that box of potatoes to produce my fries that are going on the plate up front. Versus me ordering a high quality frozen fry, and paying more for beef to make my burger and the whole dish and entree come together, than if I was just doing hand cut fries and spending that labor as well, then I might have to choose to use a lower quality beef, because I’m spending it on labor.

JB: Yeah, and no one wants to do that. 

RR: No. 

JB: Gotta have good beef on a burger. Then there’s the hidden profit in soft drinks.

RR: Oh, that grinds my gears.

JB: What about that grinds your gears? $3 for a Diet Coke?

RR: I mean, we’re not going to say any names, but I’ve been to certain places where I’m paying $25 for an entree, and my sweet tea, or a Coke product, or Pepsi product, whatever it might be, is almost $5. And that doesn’t come with refills. So if I’m paying $5 for one soda, I might as well go to the grocery store…

JB: Or the movies. (laughing)

RR: Yeah, I might just go to Parker’s, or go to the grocery store, and buy a 12 pack for that one price that you charged me for that soda. And I think on the back end, as a chef and a consumer, I’d rather give you that bottom line price of, let’s say $2.50 for your Coke, or your sweet tea, and give you unlimited refills, because that’s leaving the money and the ball in your court to spend and order more on other things you would like to try on the menu, versus paying $5 for one product of drink, and not being able to order more, because you’re like, money’s tight, right? We’re all picking and choosing what we want to spend our money on, and as a consumer, I’d rather you, and as a chef, rather you pay more for your entree and get a high quality entree, than charging you for every time you’re thirsty. That just, in my brain, it just doesn’t compute.

JB: No, I understand, but let me play devil’s advocate for a minute. 

RR: Yeah, absolutely. 

JB: If they’re doing that, is it malicious, or are they just trying to figure out a way to connect all the dots?

RR: I would say it depends on where you go. Some places are doing it just strictly to be malicious because–

JB: And make more money. 

RR: 100%. And then other places are doing it because they are a mom and pop place, and they have to cover their overhead cost of Coke install, and Coke maintaining their product lines. All of that comes at a price. So it’s not always being malicious, but sometimes… 

JB: You know when it is.

RR: Yeah, you can usually tell when you walk in.

JB: That sucks. I rarely get soft drinks. I went to a place, again, no names being mentioned, and I asked for water the other day, and they said, “we have bottled water, is that okay?” I said, “no tap water?” “No, sir.” I’m like, “no, I’m good.” I’m like, it’s water, dude, I’m not gonna pay you. I’m not gonna pay for water. Water, really? Yeah, I didn’t dig that. How often do you go out to eat? You’ve got a big family, and I’m prefacing all of that [because] people assume you’re a chef, you’re running around town all the time, you eat out four nights a week. That doesn’t happen.

RR: No, no, mean, I’m lucky if I do two times a week.

JB: Okay, a week. How often these days do you go somewhere and sit down and say, “damn, 17 bucks, or whatever the number is, for that?” Or, do you wince when you look at a menu?

RR: Because I have limited time and funds to do, you know, I only go twice a week. I’m very cautious about looking at the menu before I go, seeing if it’s somewhere that I actually want to spend my pocketbook. And if it is, then I have no problem spending my pocketbook. But if I’m just going, you know, under just trying a new place, I’m going to be a little bit more cautious because I don’t know what I’m getting, and I don’t know… you just don’t know. There’s a lot of unknowns when you’re trying a place. But I always try to be realistic, you know? We’re all trying to make it. They’re trying to be a business, they have people that they’re employed with as well, and partnering with, so any time I tell people, when you’re going out to eat, it’s not just your pocketbook that’s being affected. It’s your server’s pocketbook, it’s the dishwasher’s pocketbook, it’s the owner’s pocketbook, it’s everybody’s pocketbook and livelihood that’s being affected. It’s not just you as the consumer sitting on that side of the table that’s affected. And that’s why we are so cautious and when we’re pricing things, like you said, I’m not going to charge you $32 for a burger, it just doesn’t make sense if the quality product isn’t there. So, you have to kind of put a little trust, dare I say, when you’re sitting down looking at that menu, that there have been people who have made those hard decisions, and putting that price point next to that entree or to that menu item.

JB: True or false, 95 times out of 100, the person making up that menu, the person dealing with that budget, the person cooking your food, is trying really hard to make this as affordable for the consumer as possible.

RR: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And the chef feels that pressure, because they’re responsible for what’s going out and what’s coming in. So if I didn’t think about you as the consumer, I would be naive, because you would never want to come to my restaurant, because you didn’t want to spend that money if it wasn’t reasonably priced, and delicious at the same time. So, you know, there’s a lot of thought that goes into that number on the menu. It’s not just—you know, I can’t say for everybody, sometimes it is slapped on there, but for most chefs in this industry, it’s a very methodical, well thought out number and a reflection of the product, as well as their people and the time and the labor that’s gone into the entree that hits your table.

JB: One time many, many years ago, I’d say this goes back 6-7 years, I got cornered by a lady somewhere here in downtown Savannah, it was at a gathering of some sort, and she complained to me about the prices. This was that long ago, at a very popular restaurant here downtown. And I said, “well, you know, I love that place.” And, “yeah, but they had a scallop dish and you got two scallops and you could get an extra scallop for an extra $9.” And she was upset with me because of how expensive that was, as if I have any control over that. (laughing) It’s like, uhh, sorry. Sometimes I feel like Lucy, with the psychiatric thing for five cents, because I hear from you guys sometimes, but I also hear from the consumer. Well, this lady was very upset that they charged $9 for an extra scallop. I said, “I’ve actually had that dish and it’s wonderful, but you know, you don’t have to have the extra scallop.” “No, but it’s just robbery for them to even try to charge. And they do that to tourists because tourists will pay that.” And I’m like, “well, maybe they will, maybe they won’t.” But the point being in bringing all of that up is that people assume that, okay, $9 for an extra scallop, their profit is $8.78. No, that $9 number was arrived at because of everything else that goes into what it costs.

RR: Yeah, and you have to–where did that scallop come from? And a lot of people don’t realize too, you have to look at the market. You have to look at what’s happening, not just in your city, not just in your town, not just in your community, but you have to look widespread. So you have to look at what’s going on in the market as a whole. Like back during COVID, shrimp and crab were astronomical. And that’s because the people who were doing the farming, the farmers weren’t going out. They didn’t have the labor. People were getting sick. They also didn’t have the warehouses to maintain the crab once it was shipped from the farmer to the wholesale distributor. So all of that was impacting the cost of shrimp and the cost of crab, and that all makes a difference. 

JB: Yeah, wings back then, too.

RR: Yeah, absolutely, because everybody in their own way was being impacted. And that trickles up and it trickles down. So that $9 scallop wasn’t $9 just for the hell of it. It was $9 because maybe 10 scallops were $210, and they found a scallop they can use at a more rational, profitable number, but still it all comes at a cost. Somebody had to bring it in, somebody had to, you know, warehouse it, somebody had to ship it. All of that is a factor in that $9 price.

JB: Do you think the average consumer—well, you and I both know that the average consumer doesn’t think about costs as much as you and I are discussing right now. They don’t care. They just want the best food for no money. 

RR: Correct. 

JB: And they get mad when they don’t get it. It’s like a right. I get frustrated, I tell people all the time, email and otherwise, you don’t have to go. You didn’t have to go to that restaurant. You don’t have to go out to eat. If you’re going to go and bitch about it, don’t go.

RR: Yeah, absolutely. It’s like I’ve said before, the consumer needs to be aware, you’re making the choice to go out to eat. That’s your choice. Nobody’s making you do that. Nobody’s telling you bad things will happen if you don’t go out to eat in your local community. But when you do, you also have to walk in with the mindset that this is going to cost me money, just like anything else, just like anywhere else you go, it costs money. And you, as the consumer, have to be aware of that, and making sure you’re spending and making the right choices where you want your money to go back to.

JB: Suck it up, buttercup. The analogy I’ve always used over the years, because I, as you might imagine, have been approached in various different forms, email and otherwise, like I said, by people who complain about what something costs, like, you know, I would love to have a Mercedes SUV. I would love to have a Range Rover. I would love to have, you know, a Porsche convertible or whatever. No, actually, I wouldn’t, but that’s so incredibly cliche. But I’d love to have a big, bad SUV.

RR: Let’s get me a Sprinter van.

JB: (laughing) You know you walk into the Mercedes dealership and that’s the price. Mm-hmm Are you gonna yell at the guy because that’s the price? No, you’re gonna go. Well, let me go see what the Hyundai SUV costs, because I can’t afford that one, and it’s the same with food. I don’t bitch about what the car I would love to have costs if I can’t afford it. People shouldn’t do that when they go out for a burger, but with food people feel like they’re entitled to whatever food they want. I want to go to the nice places too, but it’s too expensive. Okay, then don’t go, you know?

RR: Right. Or do what some of us have to do, and that’s make sure you plan appropriately. 

JB: Correct. 

RR: You know, like I said, me and my husband have gone to some pretty amazing places, but it wasn’t because we could just do it on another typical Tuesday. It was because we checked it out, it was something we very much were invested in and we knew going in, this is not going to be, you know, your average Tuesday at McDonald’s. This is going to be more than above what you would normally pay for your meal, but it was a choice. It was a well thought out choice. So when that bill hit the table, we weren’t surprised, because we knew what we were going in for, we made the choice to be there, and we made the choice to accept that at what it cost.

JB: A big one the last couple of years was the audacity for Brochu’s to charge 50 bucks for fried chicken. And I put quotes around “50 bucks for fried chicken” because that’s all people in this community thought at the beginning. “50 bucks for fried chicken??” 

RR: Oh yeah. It’s just chicken, right? 

JB: Right! But it’s chicken three ways, it’s biscuits, it’s all of that stuff. I say it feeds three people. I mean, you know, yeah, I could eat the whole thing myself, but I’m not going to. I have a friend who went, he told me he went with his daughter, and “yeah, we got it, and they said we’d have leftovers and take some home, and me and my daughter ate the whole thing and we were still hungry.” And, you know, I didn’t say anything to him, but I’m thinking, damn man, you went to town on that one. Cause that’s a big ol’ platter of food.

RR: Yes, it is. It’s not a small portion.

JB: No! So, for two people to eat that whole thing and still say you were still hungry, I go, okay, well, but I think it’s a great price.

RR: It’s also, you gotta look at–even chefs look at portion control and sizes different than we did years ago, just like the prices, okay? I remember being a kid and getting a kid’s meal with a cup and it was an actual, like, five ounce cup. And now if my daughter goes and gets a kid’s meal, it’s an 8-10 ounce, sometimes a 12 ounce cup for a kid. So, portion has shifted with that as well. So when portions shift, you also have to factor that into the cost, because you’re no longer giving out a four ounce portion of fish. You’re now giving out an eight ounce portion of fish.

JB: A bunch of years ago, I’m walking in New York City with my daughter, and she wants a Starbucks, and I give her a $10 bill. She goes in, I stayed out on the sidewalk, and she comes out and gives me the change, and I gave her a $10 bill and she gave me like $1.40. And I looked at it and I didn’t say a word, and then a subsequent visit to Starbucks, I heard her order, and it was blah blah blah blah and a shot of espresso–and an extra shot. Like, no wonder that damn coffee last week was $9. Oof!

RR: (laughing) Kept her running.

JB: Something like that. So what’s the answer? There is no answer. It costs what it costs, but you still—I think ultimately we have to leave this at, like you just said, if you go out, it’s a choice you’re making, and don’t take it out on you guys, because you’re trying really hard to keep it in line.

RR: Yeah, I mean, it’s like I said, it’s a decision some of us chefs lose sleep over. We do, we lose sleep over the fact that we have to charge certain prices because, of course, especially somebody like myself, you know, relationships through food. If I had the opportunity, I would love to feed everybody and say that it costs nothing. But I’d be naive to believe that that could ever happen. Everything costs money. Everything comes at a price, not only just priced financially, but priced in time, priced in value, priced in labor… it all has a bottom line. So when you’re going out, you have to–or, I encourage you to keep in mind that those prices were not made just out of willy nilly picking numbers out of the air. You know, I’m also thinking about how my hostess can pay her bills, and how I can keep her employed, how I can keep my line cooks wanting to cook your food, you know, to the par that you want it. I’m thinking about everybody involved when you come and sit down in my restaurant. So, you know, I’m…

JB: You’re not pricing stuff based on, “I need to be able to pay for my Mercedes SUV.”

RR: No, no, I’m not. 

JB: (laughing) It’s not about that. 

RR: It’s not about that.

JB: No, I get it. I get it. Well, you know, we could spend another 30 minutes talking about what stuff costs you. You were telling me about eggs and beef and, you know, we could run down the list, but if it’s expensive out there, it’s going to be reflected in a restaurant. And everybody’s just trying to do the best that they can with what they’ve got. 

RR: We’re all just trying to make it.

JB: Yeah, it’s a business. Well, Ray, thanks for stopping by.

RR: Always. Thank you for having me. See you next time.

JB: Yeah, we’re gonna talk labor soon, because labor costs are, true or false, through the roof? 

RR: True.

JB: And it’s related to what we just talked about. I need to make more because I’m spending more.

RR: Absolutely.

JB: And round and round it goes, spinning wheel. All right, thanks for hanging out here at the Eat It and Like It podcast. We’ll catch you next time.